Curse

pham917 · Nov 06, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

No offence, but this is sort of dumb. I'm not talking about your writing style, which is weird and hard to read. What you say is just mostly wrong.

"did i mention u leech? " Are you talking about getting Zealeous mod on your weapon? Sure. That will help a little bit with your energy management in PvE. In PvP where you often hit just 1 target at a time, this does nothing.

"Ur relying on strength moves" Which ones in particular, and what for?

"the only dervish skills u use is earth category which only takes 5 energy. if warriors can cast healing breeze and spam it which costs 10 energy " What warrior spams this?

"scythe ultimatly in the long run deals more damge due to higher damage ratio 9-41 vs 6-26 i think ppl noe numbers.. and the fact it inherits the abiltiy to inflict critcals makes it that more devasting. " An axe does 6-28. At skill lvl 16 it does up to 36. "ppl noe numbers". You can go up to 16 in Axe mastery, But only lvl 12 in Scyth as a warrior. Meaning that you get criticals much more likely than with Scythe. Axe attacks every 1.3 seconds, while Scythe is 1.85 I believe. If you run these numbers, you will probably find that and Axe raw damage beats the crap out of Scythe (for a warrior). But even a Dragon Slash sword warrior would beat out a W/D Scythe warrior, as then the warrior can get into near constant +40 damage attacks that cost 0 energy.

"remeber warriors also have adredline skills.... *cough* bonetties defense " In PvE Bonetties is pretty good. But you can't use any skills while using it. In PvP, it is near useless.

"so healing isnt a problem here, especially if ur hero or teamate hypothetically casts vigorus spirit on u." Ever try cyclone axe and tripple chop? Anyway, there are many ways to heal. I like that new Lion's comfort thing.

"so be a little more effervescent about new ideas and opinions not rely on old school things. change is good. G" I agree. But I don't see how this Scythe warrior is going to be nearly as good as more standard builds. Besides...Swords and Axes look better the Scythes anyway.

My deepest apologies if it is hard to read, im rushing wat i write. Anyways wat strength moves u say? um for starters powerstrike... wild blow. BTW after lvl 12 in any weapon the damage percentage is so unnoticable its pointless. look at the statistics.
atribute lvl for percentage of weapon damage
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
so as u can c its tottaly a waste of pts to put any more then requried. but in ur situation u want to increment the damage of ur skills where as in my positon i can just increase base damage and put other pts in diffrent areas that may also increase my chance of owning you. After 12, the returns on increasing your weapon attributes diminish sharply - each additional level is worth just 40% of what the previous levels got you. So while having a level 13 or 14 attribute might look good on your stat screen, it isn't doing a whole lot in game. You'd be better served lowering that attribute and investing elsewhere. bonetties defense is actually quite good due to the fact it blocks 75 percent of atks and recovers u 5 energy. even tho energy isnt the issue here. cuz ur damage is already high due to ur scythe so theres no need to use skills unless u really want to own them fast, again u leech energy... to activate LOW costing skills. I agree swords do look awesome but so do scythes thats ur personal preference not the majority.
btw against armor of 60 u get constant 45 up to 70 damage base atks without skill enhancement or mods for weapon and a base strength of 12 not 15.. they arent even criticals. they are just regular swings. ^ ^ plus u can be very mean and just increase ur atk speed. its 1.75 for scythe but speed shouldnt be a problem here. throw in power strike and they're really hurting. i find it annoying how u think .3 is that much of a diff in atk speed... lmao its till under two seconds.... the zealous mod indeed is not useless, 1 energy is a lot for a warrior. besides for the umpteen time u regen +2 to activate LOW costing moves such as power strike.

"the only dervish skills u use is earth category which only takes 5 energy. if warriors can cast healing breeze and spam it which costs 10 energy " What warrior spams this?

in case u hadnt notice the energy costs of the skills wammo tend to use... say they cast vigor spirit, healing breeze=15 energy off the bat that leaves them with 5 energy left for wat? frenzy? zippo no energy. most good wammos dont leech energy. cuz of balthazars spirit. If ur pve which wammos are mostly only good for. the following ensues, live vicariously,vigorious spirit, balthazar spirit with the constant clicking of healing breeze. Most farmers will do that.

sry that my writing style annoys u but aparently u seem quite dense when it comes to logic. plz review post below. Standard builds... Guild wars is about innovation. not generic STandard "noobie builds" thats the joy of this game. theres no such thing as God build. I did not in fact or claim that this build WILL PWN EVERYONE. i simply stated that this will be a good build for tankeers due to damage output and defense. most good pvp teams have healers. u might as well make this build damage only.

pham917 · Nov 06, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

No offence, but this is sort of dumb. I'm not talking about your writing style, which is weird and hard to read. What you say is just mostly wrong.

"did i mention u leech? " Are you talking about getting Zealeous mod on your weapon? Sure. That will help a little bit with your energy management in PvE. In PvP where you often hit just 1 target at a time, this does nothing.

"Ur relying on strength moves" Which ones in particular, and what for? TO INCREMENT DAMAGE if u want.

"the only dervish skills u use is earth category which only takes 5 energy. if warriors can cast healing breeze and spam it which costs 10 energy " What warrior spams this?

"scythe ultimatly in the long run deals more damge due to higher damage ratio 9-41 vs 6-26 i think ppl noe numbers.. and the fact it inherits the abiltiy to inflict critcals makes it that more devasting. " An axe does 6-28. At skill lvl 16 it does up to 36. "ppl noe numbers". You can go up to 16 in Axe mastery, But only lvl 12 in Scyth as a warrior. Meaning that you get criticals much more likely than with Scythe. Axe attacks every 1.3 seconds, while Scythe is 1.85 I believe. If you run these numbers, you will probably find that and Axe raw damage beats the crap out of Scythe (for a warrior). But even a Dragon Slash sword warrior would beat out a W/D Scythe warrior, as then the warrior can get into near constant +40 damage attacks that cost 0 energy.

"remeber warriors also have adredline skills.... *cough* bonetties defense " In PvE Bonetties is pretty good. But you can't use any skills while using it. In PvP, it is near useless.

"so healing isnt a problem here, especially if ur hero or teamate hypothetically casts vigorus spirit on u." Ever try cyclone axe and tripple chop? Anyway, there are many ways to heal. I like that new Lion's comfort thing.

"so be a little more effervescent about new ideas and opinions not rely on old school things. change is good. " I agree. But I don't see how this Scythe warrior is going to be nearly as good as more standard builds. Besides...Swords and Axes look better the Scythes anyway.

ur ideas on how a axe has a chance to land criticals is quite atrocious.

Every critical hit with a customized top (6-28) axe and a level 12 Axe Mastery will deal:

28 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 40 ) / 40) = 47.5 damage per critical -i land more then that without critcals....... also around lvl 16 axe mastery u only have around wat roughly 25% chance to land a critical against someone LOWER lvl then u. where as scythes INHERITS the abiltiy to land criticals.... which i dont plan to go into statisics. U should look it up. ^ ^

"remeber warriors also have adredline skills.... *cough* bonetties defense " In PvE Bonetties is pretty good. But you can't use any skills while using it. In PvP, it is near useless.

bonetties defense is not useless.

like i said u dont need to use any skills except to finish them off after u get all ur energy back, ur reglular atks are more then enuff that was the whole pt of this build. I do as much or rather more then u without the array of skills enhancement. But its advisable that this build does take advantage of it cuz it will help u deal even more damage then neccesary. power strike against ac of 60 will land 123 damage. thats without element damage for wep.

jesh · Nov 07, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by pham917

like i said u dont need to use any skills except to finish them off after u get all ur energy back, ur reglular atks are more then enuff that was the whole pt of this build. I do as much or rather more then u without the array of skills enhancement. But its advisable that thsi build does take advantage of it cuz it will help u deal even more damage then neccesary.

1. Regular attacks won't kill anyone, ever.
2. Strength does not apply to regular swings, only attack skills.
3. Zealous upgrades, if that's what you consider "energy leeching", will be hitting only 1 opponent 9/10 in pvp.
4. Wild Blow is non attribute, not a strength attack.
5. Strength attacks all cost energy, and therefore have poor synergy with Dervish skills.

I don't even know what else I can say, except take an english class, and learn that PvP is a completely different bunny than PvE.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

1. Regular attacks won't kill anyone, ever.
2. Strength does not apply to regular swings, only attack skills.
3. Zealous upgrades, if that's what you consider "energy leeching", will be hitting only 1 opponent 9/10 in pvp.
4. Wild Blow is non attribute, not a strength attack.
5. Strength attacks all cost energy, and therefore have poor synergy with Dervish skills.

I don't even know what else I can say, except take an english class, and learn that PvP is a completely different bunny than PvE.

im 13 years old. and i say that strength give u armor penetration. so in that case it helps ur regular atk swings deal more. one more thing wtf is frenzy/primal rage/flurry used for??? HMMM??? it makes ur regular atks rape. sry about the wild blow but power strike sure as heck works. wild blow= garenteed critical. who ever said that i didnt noe about pve or pvp? hmm? PVP =innovative ideas. w/d is one of em. ur right strengh atks do cost energy. a very low cost. 5 energy isnt much. quit crying, wammos consume more. ten bucks regular atks will kill u. y wont u make a w/d in PVP and try it out on the dummies? remeber u have no mods no nothing but look at the damage u deal against armor of 60 then come back to me and tell me that it didnt do more damage then final thrust. btw my extensive vocabulary is quite better then urs im sure. even if u c gramatical errors such as now it doesnt matter. no point in writing an esssay. so b4 u make accustations of someone being ignorant please substantiate properly.

i bet ur gay.. u noe y? cuz ur jesh a fag. woops there goes gramatical errors again. HEE HEE (u have gramatical errors too. its the internet not freakin english 1301)

ogami_ito · Nov 07, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

1. Regular attacks won't kill anyone, ever.
2. Strength does not apply to regular swings, only attack skills.
3. Zealous upgrades, if that's what you consider "energy leeching", will be hitting only 1 opponent 9/10 in pvp.
4. Wild Blow is non attribute, not a strength attack.
5. Strength attacks all cost energy, and therefore have poor synergy with Dervish skills.

I don't even know what else I can say, except take an english class, and learn that PvP is a completely different bunny than PvE.

Your points echo mine I believe. However, just one thing. Strength applies ONLY to regular attack damage. Attack skills damage is automatically armor-ignoring, unless the skill says something like "does cold damage". If the skill says "Does +X damage", all that additional damage is already armor-penetrating.

pinoy474 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

First off, try this guy's build b4 u even bash it. This is why there are very little "new" builds. Because people just bash these new ideas and reinforce the old ones w/o even trying it. Sure, u can calculate and run the numbers. Running those numbers only gives u and idea of what will happen. In order to fully understand the concept/idea you need to try/experiment the idea yourself.

I like this build, so far. I just have to see it in real action.

The Prince · Nov 07, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

this whole build's energy management relies on hitting groups of enemies with a weapon that attacks slower than a hammer. while it can be argued that strength attacks have a low energy cost, that cost is pretty high when you've got one pip of regen and have ~30 max energy (if you decided to go with glads armor). someone decides to cripple and blind you and this build is completely screwed. the benefit of w/mo and w/n is condition removal. most of the counters to the warrior are conditions like cripple, blind, deep wound, etc. while this build looks good for inflicting damage, (im not even going to talk about pvp anymore), a good warrior's job is mostly to stay alive(tanking with dp puts a lot more stress on monks and youre far less effective with it). thats why most effective pve tank builds have more than just attack skills. and in pvp the zealous scythe combo is FAR less effective because unless you decide to try to take out an MM, you wont be hitting the mobs you need for your zealous energy regen. weapon switching would be required, but thats not time efficient, especially when you're better off as a warrior using a sword/axe/hammer and focusing on the strengths those provide for a warrior (pressure/spike/kd). IMO, the w/d is a good concept, but energy constraints will ultimately render the build you were trying to achieve ineffective as you would need to bring too many skills to manage your energy/suvive that could have been better used if you didnt have a w/d secondary.

ill finish off by saying something you can read over and over again on these forums-"the most damaging build is usually the least practical"

Desires · Nov 07, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Why not just make a derv skills like conviction and armor of sanctity ect more then make up for the def diffrence. First running anything under then 16/15 weapon mastery is just plain stupid ect on a few builds like crip shot weapon mastery should be maxed. Next Str only applies to attack skills. With double your energy regen before mystism a derv can litarly spam attack skills which is where you get the armor ignoring damage bonus. Dervs have their own IAS and can use warrior ones if they want to.And lastly a Derv with Wild Blow>Warrior with Wildblow.

LightningHell · Nov 07, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Your points echo mine I believe. However, just one thing. Strength applies ONLY to regular attack damage. Attack skills damage is automatically armor-ignoring, unless the skill says something like "does cold damage". If the skill says "Does +X damage", all that additional damage is already armor-penetrating.

I think you mean that Strength applies the armor penetration to the base attack damage of an attack skill. In that sense, you're correct, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pham917

im 13 years old. and i say that strength give u armor penetration. so in that case it helps ur regular atk swings deal more. one more thing wtf is frenzy/primal rage/flurry used for??? HMMM??? it makes ur regular atks rape. sry about the wild blow but power strike sure as heck works. wild blow= garenteed critical. who ever said that i didnt noe about pve or pvp? hmm? PVP =innovative ideas. w/d is one of em. ur right strengh atks do cost energy. a very low cost. 5 energy isnt much. quit crying, wammos consume more. ten bucks regular atks will kill u. y wont u make a w/d in PVP and try it out on the dummies? remeber u have no mods no nothing but look at the damage u deal against armor of 60 then come back to me and tell me that it didnt do more damage then final thrust. btw my extensive vocabulary is quite better then urs im sure. even if u c gramatical errors such as now it doesnt matter. no point in writing an esssay. so b4 u make accustations of someone being ignorant please substantiate properly. i bet ur gay.. u noe y? cuz ur jesh a fag. woops there goes gramatical errors again. HEE HEE (u have gramatical errors too. its the internet not freakin english 1301)

/eyes bleed

It's not English class, but writing properly gives people a chance to read it. I joined these forums when I was 13, and I could actually write English, and it's my second-learnt language. It's said in the rules. Also, your very extensive vocabulary does not necessitate (in the general consensus) a generally absonant outburst, or display, of your particular ability to transcribe or otherwise concieve and concoct independant figures of thought into the English language. Your quadrupedation of your fellow posters have come to the amusement of all. Also, your attempt to discombobulate the general populace by typing in absolutely, malevolently aficititious information gathered in absurdly long paragraphs has backfired. Your gelogenic, gaumless example of "btw my extensive vocabulary is quite better then urs im sure. even if u c gramatical errors such as now it doesnt matter. no point in writing an esssay." is the perfect specimen for a suitably "illiterate" post. I fully expect some kind of ultion, and hopes it will be done on this phrontistery, over the suitably unfeeling gaze of our fellow posters.

Returning the the original point, after much deciphering...

Quote:

im 13 years old.

Judging from the evidence presented before me, you don't look like it.

Quote:

and i say that strength give u armor penetration. so in that case it helps ur regular atk swings deal more.

It helps your attack SKILLS by giving them armor penetration. Read the attribute descriptions properly.

Quote:

one more thing wtf is frenzy/primal rage/flurry used for??? HMMM??? it makes ur regular atks rape.

It is also used for every other axe/sword/hammer warrior. In that case, Sword/Axes swing once per 8/9 seconds.

Quote:

sry about the wild blow but power strike sure as heck works.

Power Strike sure as heck works...when you go PvE with your friendly ragequitting wammo.

Quote:

wild blow= garenteed critical.

Of course. It's not exactly that much more damage though, since Wild Blow doesn't give any +damage.

Quote:

who ever said that i didnt noe about pve or pvp? hmm? PVP =innovative ideas. w/d is one of em.

Wrong. PvP is about using the skills to win, not using mindnumbingly dumb, but "innovative" ideas.

Quote:

ur right strengh atks do cost energy. a very low cost. 5 energy isnt much. quit crying, wammos consume more.

I ask, who brings Healing Breeze/Mending wammos to PvP?

Quote:

ten bucks regular atks will kill u.

Ten bucks a Blessed Light with two skill modifications can kill you before regular attacks will kill the BL.

Quote:

y wont u make a w/d in PVP and try it out on the dummies? remeber u have no mods no nothing but look at the damage u deal against armor of 60 then come back to me and tell me that it didnt do more damage then final thrust.

I can safely say it didn't do more damage than final thrust.

EDIT: Oh, yes, and I fully expect ALL players in PvP to stand there like a true dummy.

jesh · Nov 07, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I think you mean that Strength applies the armor penetration to the base attack damage of an attack skill. In that sense, you're correct, I think.

Wow that was confusing to read at 2 am but I think that's right. All the bonus damage from attack skills is armor ignoring, I think?
Thanks for the personal attacks. I have yet to see a real build here, anything more than "use energy leech" and "scythe ftw". Why don't you post a skill list since you're so experienced with it?

Silk Weaver · Nov 07, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Well, Jesh, there was this silly notion that armor ignoring sets the AL to 60, and that AP kicking in would reduce it further. Not true, of course, and you've probably heard, but just wanted to mention.

Someone is abusing powers they don't have yet~

Okay, let's inject some intelligent into the discussion. Whereas both Lightning and Ogami, Jesh, and others(?) have made points, they haven't added anything to the actual discussion.

I assume that the thread is about the Dervish class being the best secondary, and not simply the "best" secondary. Notice that "best" does not really exist. More accurately, it would be "most suitable" for each situation. A theoretical best is would be "most suitable" in all reasonable situations.

In that case, no, W/D is not the best. Here are a few reasons: It cannot utilize Deepwound or Adrenaline/Melee spike as effective as either a Axe/Sword/Hammer warrior OR a Dervish, speaking, of course, of the pretty decent Reaper's Sweep + Mystic Sweep (3/4 activation) spike, or using Wearying Strike + Plague touch to spread deepwound for fun. Don't know what for, and haven't found a use, but it seemed important to note.

For that reason, the W/D is limited in its use. Especially in form of attacks, as there aren't really any good attack skills a W/D can use with the exception of Wild Blow, and, in my opinion, Bull's Strike, and Protector's Strike, both of which are triggering from moving targets. I forgot whether it was moving targets that trigger criticals, or if it's still "fleeing" unlike the Bull's Strike update a while back, but both these skills seem to syngergize well with a scythe.

As you can see, I'm not the most learned warrior there is. Still, from experiences as a D/W, I've learnt that running from a Dervish is a bad idea. A warrior with slightly less than half health will very likely be killed by the aforementioned combo (Reaper+Mystic), due to the high critical.

Speaking of critical, I've found, in the PvP weekend, in fact, that a W/D does do large amount of DPS. This DPS can largely be avoided through kiting (or not kiting), and correct positioning. Mesmers in Zaishen Challenge were like flies, however, so it's all fine and dandy to me.

When using a scythe, I can only assume that is your goal is to maximize your Critical Chance, which can be done through Primal Rage. It's possible to use a A/D, but that's neither here nor there. With Primal Rage, you run into lots of complications. For one thing, it's stupid as an RA build, and it's dubious whether effecient monks exist in PvE, so the lack of healing causes concern. However, it does have decent armor (watch yourself was added in for fun). It is a rather oppotunistic build. I didn't actually run Prot's Strike, though it makes lots of theoretical sense. Wild Blow and Bull's Strike was good enough.

Strength does not add damage to normal attacks, so it's really just for the Primal Rage. It deals a hefty amount of damage...

... but less damage than a Dervish. It's simple numbers, really. Due to higher mastery, a Dervish deals more damage on average. Now added to this, you are capable of using a non stance IAS, namely Heart of Fury, which gives a nice 33% buff at little cost. Enchant stripping isn't an issue if you have multiple 5 recharging enchants.

Back on topic. With an IAS, your dervish does less damage than a dervish. Note that fleeing goes auto crit anyway, so Primal Rage, I found, wasn't really as good as it seemed, didn't add as much as I thought it would. A Dervish can use an avatar, buffing its armor to up to 115 (windwalker), or with Lyssa's, my favourite, which gives a crazy +50 damage, or Reaper+Mystic scythe combo.

For one thing, I am pretty sure a D/W and beat a W/D one on one quite easily, due to several reasons: +25 per hit, +10 regen, +33% IAS, +Cripple fleeing does +Choice Elite. Strength's activation, when it does, which it wouldn't very often, doesn't really do as much difference as you might like. The thing with a D/W are the constant restrictions, and you would know what it means if you've played one. It's not a big issue though. In fact, its restrictions are lesser to that of a W/D.

Now to compare a W/D to a W/any. Axe for example. Energy leech? You lose precious health leech and adrenaline by using a Zealous Scythe. Note also that scythe's slow attack speed means that you gain energy slower too. Without an IAS as a Zealous Hammer warrior would have, you simply don't gain that much energy too quickly. Scythes without IAS are really.. really slow. Of course, a dervish compensates that by having Mystic and Eremite's Sweep, but I guess that's a closed door for you.

An Axe swings much much faster. Triple + Cyclone combo are more effective in huge mobs, and deal more damage too. Scythes hitting 3 targets, for me, is more for flavor than actual use. In a touch situation, I don't see it coming into play that much.

Both ways, they deal more damage to single targets, and potentially become more effective in PvE as well.

So yes, it could work, I guess.

Vital Boon is a poor skill for a warrior in my opinion though, same with Twin Moon.

SA_DEMON · Nov 07, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Hi just read these posts and i agree energy will be a problem. But i started looking at all my skills and figured since he/she is going with STR Warrior's Endurance will give good energy management, flail for speed, and dolyak as an armor buff and you could have a good pve build just fill in blanks with the attack skills you like. Just a note this is simply an idea that can be built on.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Wat mr lightning says and wat i say back. ^ ^

MR lightning=I think you mean that Strength applies the armor penetration to the base attack damage of an attack skill. In that sense, you're correct, I think.

Me= I AM CORRECT IDIOT TRY IT URSELF. leave u str at 0 then when u fight a dummy at NAMELESS ISLE hit it, then increase ur str. and hit it again. u stand corrected.

/eyes bleed

Mr lightning=It's not English class, but writing properly gives people a chance to read it. I joined these forums when I was 13, and I could actually write English, and it's my second-learnt language. It's said in the rules. Also, your very extensive vocabulary does not necessitate (in the general consensus) a generally absonant outburst, or display, of your particular ability to transcribe or otherwise concieve and concoct independant figures of thought into the English language. Your quadrupedation of your fellow posters have come to the amusement of all. Also, your attempt to discombobulate the general populace by typing in absolutely, malevolently aficititious information gathered in absurdly long paragraphs has backfired. Your gelogenic, gaumless example of "btw my extensive vocabulary is quite better then urs im sure. even if u c gramatical errors such as now it doesnt matter. no point in writing an esssay." is the perfect specimen for a suitably "illiterate" post. I fully expect some kind of ultion, and hopes it will be done on this phrontistery, over the suitably unfeeling gaze of our fellow posters.

ME:Im quite positive ppl understood wat i wrote. Ppl like u tho ,like to go thru a flaming rampage and try to be smart will undubitaly write such a post and make other gamers such ourselves be in a state of "wtf" besides anyone can grab a thesarus......-pham

Mr. Lightning=Returning the the original point, after much deciphering...

Judging from the evidence presented before me, you don't look like it.

Me=judging from my opinion u feel extemely secure in ur confidence as a gamer due to the fact u lack a social life. on top of that u cant c me fool. and i truly am 13 yrs old. i go to incarnate word academy in texas. its a private school. so that will explain to u y i noe a lil more the most ppl due to my adoloscent age. i think if u pay 20k a year u should get ur moneys worth. plus im asian so that could also unravel they mystery to ur skeptical nature ^ ^-pham

Mr lightning=It helps your attack SKILLS by giving them armor penetration. Read the attribute descriptions properly.

Me=MORON--- ARMOR PENETRATION WILL IN FACT INCREASE UR DAMAGE OUTPUT OF U BASE ATKS TOO.

MR lightning=It is also used for every other axe/sword/hammer warrior. In that case, Sword/Axes swing once per 8/9 seconds.

mr lightning=Power Strike sure as heck works...when you go PvE with your friendly ragequitting wammo
Of course. It's not exactly that much more damage though, since Wild Blow doesn't give any +damage.

me=ACtually its a quite a bit of damage due to the fact it makes the scythe land a critical 9-41. plus it will strip anyone of any stances. which means no denfense no evasion

mr lightining=Wrong. PvP is about using the skills to win, not using mindnumbingly dumb, but "innovative" ideas.

me=that was the dumbest thing i read so far besides ur fake ass facade of being a english teacher. Lmao u liked totally missed the point then... thousands of skills. 8 slots. Who can make good builds then hmm? u have to make ideas moron.

mr lightning= I ask, who brings Healing Breeze/Mending wammos to PvP?

ME=noobs like you. besides this isnt about just pvp fool look at the past few posts they were complaining about pve and pvp.

MR lightning=Ten bucks a Blessed Light with two skill modifications can kill you before regular attacks will kill the BL.

Me=ten bux i have freinds and dont spend 1000+ hrs on video games. also primal rage will kill u b4 u have a chance. look up wat it does fool. it ws in regards to the moron that said regular atks cant kill. which i have no idea where he had the audicity to state such a thing.

Mr lighting=I can safely say it didn't do more damage than final thrust.

Me= lmao yes it does idiot. go to the dummy of armor 60. max out scythe max out ur str. remeber u have just 12 str. hit it with powerstrike then come back to me.

MR lightning= Oh, yes, and I fully expect ALL players in PvP to stand there like a true dummy.

Me= idiot.... nameless isle has dummys moron. 60,80,100 armor classes. test it.. so obiviously u lied, u cant safely say final thrust did more damage cuz u didnt try. moron. besides since powerstrike only takes 5 energy to cast u can use it over and over again and land the damage OVER AND OVER AGAIN. where as final thrust u have to wait till enemys have half health to land that to its optimum performance. plus u need adredline where as it will completely drain u for the rest of ur adredline.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SA_DEMON

Hi just read these posts and i agree energy will be a problem. But i started looking at all my skills and figured since he/she is going with STR Warrior's Endurance will give good energy management, flail for speed, and dolyak as an armor buff and you could have a good pve build just fill in blanks with the attack skills you like. Just a note this is simply an idea that can be built on.

U are indeed a bright man.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Wow that was confusing to read at 2 am but I think that's right. All the bonus damage from attack skills is armor ignoring, I think?
Thanks for the personal attacks. I have yet to see a real build here, anything more than "use energy leech" and "scythe ftw". Why don't you post a skill list since you're so experienced with it?

Dolayk sig
power strike
primal rage
health sig
res sig
endure pain/or any stance to ur prefrence such as bonetties. cuz aparently u got problem with energy usage... which is dumb since warriors consume so little.
strenght sig
wild blow

MAx scythe, max str, rest in tactics instead. i figure earth woulda been good. but who noes yet refer to the build below. tactics seem so much more appealing. there u go. revise it anyway u like. but i do quite fine with that. or u can just utlize all dervish skills with warrior endurance as ur elite. remeber folks energy is SUCH a problem.

u can try Mr parasite build. whihc i find quite intriguing

Strength- 10 + 3 + 1
Scythe Mastery-12
Earth Prayers-8

Warrior's Endurance [E]
Lion's Comfort
Counterattack
Chilling Victory
Victorious Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak

Basically it's a huge health tank who uses Twin Moon Sweep and Victorious Sweep (as well as Weakness and Blindness caused by enchants) to tank while dishing out damage through Chilling Victory, Twin Moon Sweep, and the enchatments. Counterattack is great vs. melee and is free damage. Lion's Comfort is for emergency heals. Warrior's Endurance is PERFECT with Scythes just make sure you spam your enchants along with Twin Moon Sweep to make sure you don't hit the energy cap.

aparently this fellow living parasite is a veteran. hmmm

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prince

this whole build's energy management relies on hitting groups of enemies with a weapon that attacks slower than a hammer. while it can be argued that strength attacks have a low energy cost, that cost is pretty high when you've got one pip of regen and have ~30 max energy (if you decided to go with glads armor). someone decides to cripple and blind you and this build is completely screwed. the benefit of w/mo and w/n is condition removal. most of the counters to the warrior are conditions like cripple, blind, deep wound, etc. while this build looks good for inflicting damage, (im not even going to talk about pvp anymore), a good warrior's job is mostly to stay alive(tanking with dp puts a lot more stress on monks and youre far less effective with it). thats why most effective pve tank builds have more than just attack skills. and in pvp the zealous scythe combo is FAR less effective because unless you decide to try to take out an MM, you wont be hitting the mobs you need for your zealous energy regen. weapon switching would be required, but thats not time efficient, especially when you're better off as a warrior using a sword/axe/hammer and focusing on the strengths those provide for a warrior (pressure/spike/kd). IMO, the w/d is a good concept, but energy constraints will ultimately render the build you were trying to achieve ineffective as you would need to bring too many skills to manage your energy/suvive that could have been better used if you didnt have a w/d secondary.

ill finish off by saying something you can read over and over again on these forums-"the most damaging build is usually the least practical"

and i say unto u who goes pvp by oneself hmmm?? i told u for the last time coditions wont be a problem with a good pvp team.. and no, ppl strive for damaging builds due to the fact this char is a warrior. i wonder wat they're made for... and no zealous is not useless. if ur in primal rage u not only damage at a IAS rate but u get more armor penetration plus u get energy back at a constant rate for X amount of seconds. during that u can use powerstrike/wildblow. over and over again. im sure they're quite dead then. even tho ur skills are disabled for 10 secs. ur using a scythe not a low damage wep. oh yea. u also have a good pvp team. or at least i hope so.. thats y this game is indeed called GUILD wars.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Wow that was confusing to read at 2 am but I think that's right. All the bonus damage from attack skills is armor ignoring, I think?
Thanks for the personal attacks. I have yet to see a real build here, anything more than "use energy leech" and "scythe ftw". Why don't you post a skill list since you're so experienced with it?

and i apologize. i didnt mean any personal atks. it was immature. but instead of critizing and finding flaws in builds u havent tested yet y wont u try it urself. it wont take u more then a few minutes. go to pvp create char. equip urself with one of dem scythes and power strike a 60 armor dummy in nameless isle. tell me if it doesnt land more then a 100.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Well, Jesh, there was this silly notion that armor ignoring sets the AL to 60, and that AP kicking in would reduce it further. Not true, of course, and you've probably heard, but just wanted to mention.

Someone is abusing powers they don't have yet~

Okay, let's inject some intelligent into the discussion. Whereas both Lightning and Ogami, Jesh, and others(?) have made points, they haven't added anything to the actual discussion.

I assume that the thread is about the Dervish class being the best secondary, and not simply the "best" secondary. Notice that "best" does not really exist. More accurately, it would be "most suitable" for each situation. A theoretical best is would be "most suitable" in all reasonable situations.

In that case, no, W/D is not the best. Here are a few reasons: It cannot utilize Deepwound or Adrenaline/Melee spike as effective as either a Axe/Sword/Hammer warrior OR a Dervish, speaking, of course, of the pretty decent Reaper's Sweep + Mystic Sweep (3/4 activation) spike, or using Wearying Strike + Plague touch to spread deepwound for fun. Don't know what for, and haven't found a use, but it seemed important to note.

For that reason, the W/D is limited in its use. Especially in form of attacks, as there aren't really any good attack skills a W/D can use with the exception of Wild Blow, and, in my opinion, Bull's Strike, and Protector's Strike, both of which are triggering from moving targets. I forgot whether it was moving targets that trigger criticals, or if it's still "fleeing" unlike the Bull's Strike update a while back, but both these skills seem to syngergize well with a scythe.

As you can see, I'm not the most learned warrior there is. Still, from experiences as a D/W, I've learnt that running from a Dervish is a bad idea. A warrior with slightly less than half health will very likely be killed by the aforementioned combo (Reaper+Mystic), due to the high critical.

. This DPS can largely be avoided through kiting (or not kiting), and correct positioning. Mesmers in Zaishen Challenge were like flies, however, so it's all fine and dandy to me.

When using a scythe, I can only assume that is your goal is to maximize your Critical Chance, which can be done through Primal Rage. It's possible to use a A/D, but that's neither here nor there. With Primal Rage, you run into lots of complications. For one thing, it's stupid as an RA build, and it's dubious whether effecient monks exist in PvE, so the lack of healing causes concern. However, it does have decent armor (watch yourself was added in for fun). It is a rather oppotunistic build. I didn't actually run Prot's Strike, though it makes lots of theoretical sense. Wild Blow and Bull's Strike was good enough.

Strength does not add damage to normal attacks, so it's really just for the Primal Rage. It deals a hefty amount of damage...

... but less damage than a Dervish. It's simple numbers, really. Due to higher mastery, a Dervish deals more damage on average. Now added to this, you are capable of using a non stance IAS, namely Heart of Fury, which gives a nice 33% buff at little cost. Enchant stripping isn't an issue if you have multiple 5 recharging enchants.

Back on topic. With an IAS, your dervish does less damage than a dervish. Note that fleeing goes auto crit anyway, so Primal Rage, I found, wasn't really as good as it seemed, didn't add as much as I thought it would. A Dervish can use an avatar, buffing its armor to up to 115 (windwalker), or with Lyssa's, my favourite, which gives a crazy +50 damage, or Reaper+Mystic scythe combo.

For one thing, I am pretty sure a D/W and beat a W/D one on one quite easily, due to several reasons: +25 per hit, +10 regen, +33% IAS, +Cripple fleeing does +Choice Elite. Strength's activation, when it does, which it wouldn't very often, doesn't really do as much difference as you might like. The thing with a D/W are the constant restrictions, and you would know what it means if you've played one. It's not a big issue though. In fact, its restrictions are lesser to that of a W/D.

Now to compare a W/D to a W/any. Axe for example. Energy leech? You lose precious health leech and adrenaline by using a Zealous Scythe. Note also that scythe's slow attack speed means that you gain energy slower too. Without an IAS as a Zealous Hammer warrior would have, you simply don't gain that much energy too quickly. Scythes without IAS are really.. really slow. Of course, a dervish compensates that by having Mystic and Eremite's Sweep, but I guess that's a closed door for you.

An Axe swings much much faster. Triple + Cyclone combo are more effective in huge mobs, and deal more damage too. Scythes hitting 3 targets, for me, is more for flavor than actual use. In a touch situation, I don't see it coming into play that much.

Both ways, they deal more damage to single targets, and potentially become more effective in PvE as well.

So yes, it could work, I guess.

Vital Boon is a poor skill for a warrior in my opinion though, same with Twin Moon.

Strenght does indeed increase the damage output of ur regluar atks. Go to nameless isle and atk 60 armor dummy. have ur str at zero. keep atking it to give ur self an idea of how much it does. then raise it to twelve and continue. promise u there will be damage increase. Yes i noe, BEST does not exist i tried to change the thread as u can c. good secondary. but someone says that PVP is about HAVING GOD SKILLS AND JUST OWNING. saying innovative ideas are not at all tied with pvp. whihc i find quite stupid. 8 slots. thousands of skills. but u do indeed make good pts. but as i stated earlier i did not in fact claim this build will pwn everyone. but as u said "Speaking of critical, I've found, in the PvP weekend, in fact, that a W/D does do large amount of DPS" also "However, it does have decent armor (watch yourself was added in for fun). It is a rather oppotunistic build." that was the pt i was aiming for. its not about lvls of mastery as i noted b4 in my previous posts. once past rank 12 the percentage increase is so unoticbal its a waste. the only thing if anything will only benifit the damage of scythe skills. warriors have strength as a primary here as dervishes dont, and with this it leads to armor penetration. read the first sentece of this post and do it. ull c that i am right. sides there was a site that im trying to find to explain wat strenght does for a warrior. i noe for damn sure i am right. there are a variety of moves to inflict bleeding or wounding. its not just for swords and axes. im positve scythe skills will have one. rolling numbers again 9-41 is quite more apealing to 6-28. the speed of a scythe is 1.75 that is not at all slow. LOOKS slow but with ias its not a problem. speed for warriors were nvr the issue here and most ppl noe that. vital boon isnt all that bad its insta heal. wiht twin moon. but now that i think about it i rather use tactics and utlize all tactics skill to help out a w/d. anyways the way i c it is, theres no such thing as a GOd build. so wat u say or others wont affect me cuz ur build has the capabilites of dying too.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desires

Why not just make a derv skills like conviction and armor of sanctity ect more then make up for the def diffrence. First running anything under then 16/15 weapon mastery is just plain stupid ect on a few builds like crip shot weapon mastery should be maxed. Next Str only applies to attack skills. With double your energy regen before mystism a derv can litarly spam attack skills which is where you get the armor ignoring damage bonus. Dervs have their own IAS and can use warrior ones if they want to.And lastly a Derv with Wild Blow>Warrior with Wildblow.

Derv with Wild Blow>Warrior with Wildblow- and u have proof to substantiate this? lmao i bet u nvr tried. i have a lvl 20 dervish and the dps of a warrior excels way farther then wat a dervish does. KEY WORDS on wat u said-anything under then 16/15 weapon mastery is just plain stupid ect on a FEW BUILDS. this is not at all close to any of ur generic builds. and no, the energy consumption for dervishes are quite high i doubt the word spam is tied well with this. lvl 12 mysticim gives u back 4 energy for each enchantment that is gone, some enchantemts last 20 sec to 30. so wat u got like 20 enchanments on u now? and ur gonna keep canceling them with pios assalt?big boi? for wat just to recast the enchantments again and cancle its primary use for 4 energy? that most dervish skills take 10 energy to cast? ur long gone dead if u try to keep that up. dervish have no amor penetration thats y they rely on criticals. where as warriors get both and they rely on there strength moves. i dont think i have any use for most dervish skills for a primary warrior class.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinoy474

First off, try this guy's build b4 u even bash it. This is why there are very little "new" builds. Because people just bash these new ideas and reinforce the old ones w/o even trying it. Sure, u can calculate and run the numbers. Running those numbers only gives u and idea of what will happen. In order to fully understand the concept/idea you need to try/experiment the idea yourself.

I like this build, so far. I just have to see it in real action.

U are my hero good sir. ^ ^ i too am tired of generic builds....